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imyke
    Recording CMD+SPACE tomorrow with @danielpunkass. What would you like to hear us talk about?
    dalton
      @imyke he grew up in santa cruz, right? I would be interested to hear what the bay area tech/computer scene was like back then @danielpunkass
      danielpunkass
        @dalton @imyke Interesting idea! (Spoiler/preview: tech culture a huge part of my childhood starting with BBSes in 6th grade).
        clarkgoble
          @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke LOL - so many people don't know what it was like to read text that downloaded at 300 baud. I managed to get an Usenet account back in 84 in Jr High. I still remember when I could afford a 1200 baud modem. Heaven.
          thomasbrand
            @danielpunkass did you have a modem with a receiver like in WARGAMES?
            tofias
              @imyke I don’t mean this as an insult, but I’m curious why @danielpunkass never built even a static server side blogging service into MarsEdit? Is it just because he thinks of the app from the old days when fewer apps had their own server side components?
              johngordon
                @clarkgoble @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke Hah! Heaven was error correction. V42.bis. Much bigger than double speed.
                dalton
                  @danielpunkass Nice, it must have been pretty cool to be in the bay area during that era. I bet BBSes were huge @imyke
                  danielpunkass
                    @thomasbrand In fact I did have one, but it was something of a historical artifact even by the time I got it.
                    danielpunkass
                      @tofias @imyke You mean something where I would build and support a complete server-side blogging system of my own? “Just one more thing” and I have a limited amount of time.
                      thomasbrand
                        @danielpunkass I remember seeing one, but it was an artifact by that time too.
                        clarkgoble
                          @thomasbrand @danielpunkass I onced played Zork in 83 with a modem you placed headset into and it was a teletype terminal. ie no screen - output was on line printer
                          danielpunkass
                            @dalton @imyke They were so big that there was a substantial BBS culture based on a variety of innovative, home-grown BBS software. The SysOps of the best BBSes all wrote their own and broke new ground.
                            clarkgoble
                              @imyke @danielpunkass I'm just curious if you do Squarespace as a spinster given they broke MarsEdit support! LOL
                              danielpunkass
                                @clarkgoble @thomasbrand Awesome. And BTW the term for those headset-based modems is “acoustic coupler.”
                                thomasbrand
                                  @danielpunkass that’s right! Acoustic coupler is my new screen name.
                                  danielpunkass
                                    @clarkgoble @dalton @imyke Yep. I went from 300baud to 1200 to 2400 to 56k. Zoom!
                                    rix
                                      @thomasbrand @danielpunkass Now I want to watch Sneakers again.
                                      marksiegal
                                        @danielpunkass @clarkgoble @dalton @imyke I would love to hear more about those early BBS days. My first working modem was 1200 baud, but a neighborhood friend had a 300 baud. He couldn’t even keep up with the pace of chatting on our local multi-node BBS.
                                        davmendels
                                          @danielpunkass @clarkgoble @dalton @imyke ever got an acoustically coupled modem? I can still remember those (and the sound creeeeeeee-koh-creeeeeee)
                                          piemeson
                                            @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke Man I loved the BBS days. My wife never went through that and I just talked the other night about the boost of ZModem over XModem and how it changed my life.
                                            robertgeorge
                                              @danielpunkass @clarkgoble @dalton @imyke I guess I'm a youngster, I didn't get into the local BBS scene until I had a 14.4. I'm still surprised how active the community was in the rural county where I grew up in, but it was fantastic.
                                              tofias
                                                @danielpunkass @imyke maybe it’s not that interesting a question? It just seems like more apps launch with server side components today. SaaS, etc. But I don’t mean to suggest it would be trivial or easy.
                                                jsnell
                                                  @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I picked a stock BBS program written in AppleSoft basic and heavily modified it. Pretty fun.
                                                  walruscp
                                                    @jsnell @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I fondly remember the BBS days. Was using an Amiga 500 in those days before jumping to the Mac. #memorylane
                                                    clarkgoble
                                                      @robertgeorge @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I managed to get an account on the local university’s VAX running Unix. There was a major military base nearby so they had true internet back in 83. Had fun learning C and reading Usenet via dialup. 300baud.
                                                      clarkgoble
                                                        @davmendels @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke Worst thing was when you were on your modem and your Mom picked up the other line. Ugh.
                                                        davmendels
                                                          @clarkgoble @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke yes! Sob… Fun fact: despite ADSL it still does that at my Parents’. Even with all filters in place, when the phone is picked downstairs it kills the connection. They’re far (remote) from the node (10 miles)
                                                          duerig
                                                            @clarkgoble @davmendels @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke Nah. The worst thing was when you were on the tail end of a huge meg and a half file download and your mom insists you disconnect from the BBS so she can make a phone call *now*. An hour wasted.
                                                            clarkgoble
                                                              @duerig @davmendels @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I was so excited when PPP arrived so I could download mail and communicate offline. Then schedule and connection and send/receive late at night.
                                                              davmendels
                                                                @duerig @clarkgoble @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke +1 for the “huge” 1.5Mb file. New thread: what’s the smallest HD you still own (go - run to the closets)
                                                                danielpunkass
                                                                  @tofias @imyke Well we could certainly talk more about it on the podcast :) I didn’t mean to dismiss the question either. Just hard to resist a quick response here.
                                                                  mdhughes
                                                                    @danielpunkass @jsnell @dalton @imyke I ran a BBS from '88 to '93 (The Dungeon, later The Caves of Steel when I switched to Citadel). Donations for higher status made it self-supporting. Mostly for door games and organizing RPG meetings.
                                                                    mikepj
                                                                      @davmendels @duerig @clarkgoble @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I have an Apple SC20 here. Worked until a couple of months ago, actually.
                                                                      mikepj
                                                                        @danielpunkass @clarkgoble @dalton @imyke 300 baud! I started at 1200 baud (painful) and moved to 2400, then made the huge jump to 28.8, and finally 56k. Spent a ton of time BBSing before getting Compuserve and finally internet access in ’94.
                                                                        clarkgoble
                                                                          @mikepj @davmendels @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I couldn’t believe it. When I visited my parents last my Dad had almost all the computers we’d ever had. Only my Mac+ which blew up in college was missing. The IIci was my favorite of all time.
                                                                          duerig
                                                                            @clarkgoble @mikepj @davmendels @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke Same. I think my mom still has my old Atari 800 and Commodore 64 in the basement...
                                                                            mikepj
                                                                              @clarkgoble @davmendels @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke The Iici was one of my favorites as well (though I never owned one). My favorite old Mac that I still have is an SE/30.
                                                                              clarkgoble
                                                                                @duerig @mikepj @davmendels @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I’d run one of the old Apple][ emulators but it’s really hard to find software to run it. Lot of work for a bit of nostalgia.
                                                                                mikepj
                                                                                  @clarkgoble @duerig @davmendels @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I have a bunch of Apple II software on floppies here (run them on an Apple IIGS), but half of them don’t work anymore. Wish there was a better way to archive it.
                                                                                  davmendels
                                                                                    @clarkgoble @duerig @mikepj @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke still have an HD20 in my parents’ basement. The Iici is gone, so is the SE30 unfortunately. I deeply regret selling both (particularly the SE30). Couldn’t know it would be iconic by then
                                                                                    clarkgoble
                                                                                      @mikepj @duerig @davmendels @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke Yeah, even back in early 90’s when I was in college I was finding floppies that stopped working. I’d be shocked if many work now.
                                                                                      clarkgoble
                                                                                        @davmendels @duerig @mikepj @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke My parents still have Mac128k shell (don’t ask me why) When I was in college I had thought about turning it into an aquarium after reading about someone doing it in MacWorld. Never wanted hassle.
                                                                                        kvanh
                                                                                          @clarkgoble @thomasbrand @danielpunkass i did this too. it was terminal that dialed into a mainframe my dad used. it wasn’t zork but Adventure the zork precursor. a saved game was keeping the paper roll from previous plays.
                                                                                          mikepj
                                                                                            @clarkgoble @duerig @davmendels @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke You might be surprised. I copied all my Mac data off of old floppies a couple months back. Finding a way to read Mac[Write|Paint|Draw] files is a different matter though. :-)
                                                                                            davmendels
                                                                                              @clarkgoble @mikepj @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke So are my zip drives… and my archives of FORTRAN routines (been looking for one recently, it was easier to look for new libraries)
                                                                                              clarkgoble
                                                                                                @kvanh @thomasbrand @danielpunkass Yeah, now that I think of it the program was the Zork precursor although if I recall most of it was the same.
                                                                                                mikepj
                                                                                                  @clarkgoble @davmendels @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke Not too many people have the 128k. We have a 512k somewhere, but it doesn’t work anymore. I remember installing a daughtercard to add 4MB of RAM to that thing.
                                                                                                  davmendels
                                                                                                    @mikepj @clarkgoble @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke had that problem a year ago, wanting to recover some ClarisWorks data...
                                                                                                    clarkgoble
                                                                                                      @mikepj @duerig @davmendels @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I still have my old dual 2.5 G5 because it has my conversion programs for all sorts of old files including many of those. Don’t know if I’ll ever need it but it’s there. Never ported to Intel.
                                                                                                      clarkgoble
                                                                                                        @mikepj @davmendels @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke Yeah, I remember the store I worked at used to sell hard drives they installed via a jumper on top of a chip on the motherboard. Freaky. Weird hacks to get more memory until bigger Macs arrived.
                                                                                                        clarkgoble
                                                                                                          @davmendels @mikepj @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke Didn’t the MacWorks (think that was the name - before iWork) read ClarisWorks data? I think I still have that on my old G5.
                                                                                                          mikepj
                                                                                                            @clarkgoble @duerig @davmendels @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I’m doing the same with a Performa 6500 running Mac OS 8.6. I have the apps on there, but haven’t converted my files to a universal format yet. As long as I do it before the HD fails. ;-)
                                                                                                            clarkgoble
                                                                                                              @davmendels @mikepj @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I had the precursor of the zip drive. 20 meg on this big huge honking disks. Unreliable although not nearly as bad as those zip disks. Lost all my college files when two went bad simultaneously.
                                                                                                              mikepj
                                                                                                                @clarkgoble @davmendels @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I think it was AppleWorks, wasn’t it? It should read ClarisWorks data. The only format you are screwed with moving forward is the “database” file.
                                                                                                                davmendels
                                                                                                                  @clarkgoble @mikepj @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke possible… Actually ClarisDraw is one of the only apps I miss from the glory days. Did all my articles figures in there. Then turned to Canvas (another victim of mergers)
                                                                                                                  clarkgoble
                                                                                                                    @davmendels @mikepj @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I loved the early versions of Canvas. That was a great program horribly treated. I still remember the shock and awe of *mixing* drawing and painting. Had 1.0.
                                                                                                                    davmendels
                                                                                                                      @clarkgoble @mikepj @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke went up to X on that one. Never got to 11 (that much for Spinal Tap). Yes, it was a shame. Even used it for simple CAD at that time. Way more flexible than anything else.
                                                                                                                      clarkgoble
                                                                                                                        @davmendels @mikepj @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke Anyone run MacForth back in the 80’s? It was the first *native* programming environment for the Mac. (Initially everything ran on Lisa and MS killed MacBasic, although I had the beta)
                                                                                                                        mikepj
                                                                                                                          @clarkgoble @davmendels @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke Earliest development environment I used was THINK Pascal.
                                                                                                                          davmendels
                                                                                                                            @mikepj @clarkgoble @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I think that’s right, on the Mac the first I used was THINK Pascal. Though I had earlier stabs at basic on the Sinclair ZX81… I think I was on FORTRAN on VAX-VMS before taking Pascal, though
                                                                                                                            clarkgoble
                                                                                                                              @davmendels @mikepj @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke Believe it or not when I was 14 I took Fortran and Pascal on my Apple][. But Fortran was the last year it was taught on a card reader. They trashed all of that the following year.
                                                                                                                              clarkgoble
                                                                                                                                @mikepj @davmendels @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I got the previous version, Lightspeed Pascal. I loved that it used a proportional font with keywords bolded. Lightspeed C stuck to Monaco and monospacing. I wish Xcode allowed proportional fonts.
                                                                                                                                davmendels
                                                                                                                                  @clarkgoble @mikepj @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke if you get me started on fonts and editors I’m gonna waste the day completely. Hard enough reminiscing old (fond) memories… My timeline looks like an irc at the moment
                                                                                                                                  mikepj
                                                                                                                                    @davmendels @clarkgoble @duerig @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I was thinking the same thing. Apologies to those of you who will be waking up with an inbox full of mention notifications.
                                                                                                                                    glennf
                                                                                                                                      @kvanh @clarkgoble @thomasbrand @danielpunkass I typed in Zork into a mini-computer’s TTY at my junior high and then played it.
                                                                                                                                      isaiah
                                                                                                                                        @imyke @dalton @danielpunkass wait, there's a podcast about santa cruz geeks in the 80s with 300 baud modems? ok, what podcast is this? i have to listen. if nothing else, to keep Daniel honest. ;-)
                                                                                                                                        richardbuckle
                                                                                                                                          @piemeson @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I remember implementing ZModem over Telnet (yes really) to support an offline reader for a BBS back in the day. Fun times.
                                                                                                                                          paulkirsch
                                                                                                                                            @jsnell @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke That’s awesome! I actually did the same thing once - took apart “Punter BBS” on a PET 4032… How’s that for nostalgia?!?
                                                                                                                                            danielpunkass
                                                                                                                                              @isaiah @imyke @dalton XBBS, PYRXQXGL, TEMPLE OF ZUUL FOREVER...
                                                                                                                                              isaiah
                                                                                                                                                @danielpunkass oh man, I totally forgot about temple of zuul until this post. man, i thought those slow moving characters were the real cyberspace then.
                                                                                                                                                isaiah
                                                                                                                                                  @danielpunkass I’m so glad that all rantings my teenage angst and idiocy are locked up in that guys basement pc bbs drive.
                                                                                                                                                  danielpunkass
                                                                                                                                                    @isaiah Seriously! Ahem, in THE KEY MASTER’S basement.
                                                                                                                                                    danielpunkass
                                                                                                                                                      @isaiah @imyke @dalton This huge list of 408 area code BBSes is good for jogging the memory, and an impressive testament to the vitality of the scene: http://bbslist.textfiles.com/408/oldschool.html
                                                                                                                                                      agiletortoise
                                                                                                                                                        @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I have wondered if The Matrix was better for me since my first online experiences involved placing a telephone handset on top of a modem to connect.
                                                                                                                                                        clarkgoble
                                                                                                                                                          @glennf @kvanh @thomasbrand @danielpunkass I still remember the day physics department got a VT100 terminal and I played Rogue as a kid. I was so excited.
                                                                                                                                                          dalton
                                                                                                                                                            @jsnell @danielpunkass @imyke I have half-seriously thought about how someone should port door games (i.e. Tradewars) to the App.net messaging API. At this point there is nothing holding that back
                                                                                                                                                            mlv
                                                                                                                                                              @dalton Except the cost of the account. I've written scripts (something) like that over on Twitter and can do it because if no one uses it, nothing's lost. Here, it's more of a risk. @jsnell @danielpunkass @imyke
                                                                                                                                                              dalton
                                                                                                                                                                @mlv I understand but the big risk is probably your time in either case, right? i.e. if you have a dev account, you could use one of your 2 $5 per year test accounts. If people log into the game it would also be eligible for the developer incentive program
                                                                                                                                                                mlv
                                                                                                                                                                  @dalton Certainly if it was a serious thing, then the development costs would far exceed the account costs. But I’m thinking more of just playing around in it in my spare time, for fun. I may get a dev acct, but at this point that’s a $100 toy.
                                                                                                                                                                  platkus
                                                                                                                                                                    @agiletortoise @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I never had the acoustic coupled modem, but I started with a 300 baud card modem in slot 2 of my Apple //e.
                                                                                                                                                                    lomifeh
                                                                                                                                                                      @dalton app.net tradewars would be all kinds of awesome.
                                                                                                                                                                      dalton
                                                                                                                                                                        @mlv that’s a fair point, I understand. (fwiw, you can just upgrade an existing account to dev tier rather than needing to buy a new one)
                                                                                                                                                                        dalton
                                                                                                                                                                          @lomifeh I, for one, would play it :)
                                                                                                                                                                          There are 12 new posts
                                                                                                                                                                          duerig
                                                                                                                                                                            @mlv Do you know about dev lite? You can develop with just your own access token before upgrading when you are sure. jonathonduerig.com/dev-lite/
                                                                                                                                                                            danielpunkass
                                                                                                                                                                              @mlv @dalton @jsnell @imyke “More of a risk” is certainly qualified. Apart from users needing a a paid account, it’s a less of a risk because you can count on the infrastructure being available for the use case.
                                                                                                                                                                              jeffwatkins
                                                                                                                                                                                @clarkgoble Xcode most certainly does allow proportional fonts. I find verdana works pretty well.
                                                                                                                                                                                clarkgoble
                                                                                                                                                                                  @jeffwatkins Holy Cow! You’re right. Xcode does allow proportional fonts. Now to find the right font to use. Glad you read that old comment of mine!
                                                                                                                                                                                  clarkgoble
                                                                                                                                                                                    @jeffwatkins Verdana does look good. Surprisingly so does Lucida Grande. Unfortunately it’s hard to distinguish 0 from O with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    jeffwatkins
                                                                                                                                                                                      @clarkgoble yeah, I'd love to commission a proportional programmer's font. I tried to convince one of the other GameKit devs to try proportional, but he couldn't find a font he liked.
                                                                                                                                                                                      clarkgoble
                                                                                                                                                                                        @jeffwatkins None of the ones I’ve tried were ideal. Verdana and Lucida are best. I found this link to some Google proportional programming fonts I’m going to try. http://code.google.com/p/i3project/wiki/Fonts
                                                                                                                                                                                        clarkgoble
                                                                                                                                                                                          @jeffwatkins *Way* back in Lightspeed Pascal days I loved coding in Geneva.
                                                                                                                                                                                          mlv
                                                                                                                                                                                            @duerig Got it. And did a "first post" with it last night. Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                            jamie
                                                                                                                                                                                              @dalton @jsnell @danielpunkass @imyke I would love a generic telnet gateway via an appnet @user PM interface. Could connect to existing BBS servers and games, including Tradewars. Native appnet Tradewars Game would be cooler tho.
                                                                                                                                                                                              nitinkhanna
                                                                                                                                                                                                @dalton @jamie perhaps a port of a MUD too... But browser based... :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                dalton
                                                                                                                                                                                                  @nitinkhanna @jamie I agree. Is there anything we could do to support/help make this a reality? Is any of the source code we released that powers Omega helpful? https://github.com/appdotnet/ohe
                                                                                                                                                                                                  nitinkhanna
                                                                                                                                                                                                    @dalton I don't think a MUD needs anything more than user profile info, since everything after that would happen off the API and on the MUD server. But this is more gimmick than anything else... :) @jamie
                                                                                                                                                                                                    kirkman
                                                                                                                                                                                                      @danielpunkass @dalton @imyke I loved BBSing. I used to contribute to BBS door game articles on Wikipedia until they started deleting them last year. So I started a wiki and blog to preserve the history of those games. http://breakintochat.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                      kirkman
                                                                                                                                                                                                        @mdhughes What software did you use for your BBS? What were your favorite door games?
                                                                                                                                                                                                        mdhughes
                                                                                                                                                                                                          @kirkman Starnet, then heavily modified Fnordadel. Mostly ran Assassin, Dark Temple with my own custom maps, and my own Delver RPG.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          kirkman
                                                                                                                                                                                                            @mdhughes interesting… I’m not familiar with either. We’re those PC, or a different platform?
                                                                                                                                                                                                            mdhughes
                                                                                                                                                                                                              @kirkman Ha, PC. No, they ran on Atari ST with a Mint Unix kernel, so I could use my ST while keeping the board up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              kirkman
                                                                                                                                                                                                                @mdhughes sweet! I was an Atari st user myself for many years. I called a couple FoReM boards in St. Louis in the early 1990s. But MiNT and similar things were beyond my ken at that time…
                                                                                                                                                                                                                kirkman
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  @danielpunkass Your podcast conversation stuck mostly to conversation and community among BBSers, but I was curious: did you have any favorite BBS games?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  danielpunkass
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    @kirkman I don’t have strong memories of BBS games, though I know I played some. Most of my long-standing BBS memories are of the social BBSes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    danielpunkass
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      @kirkman I have more memories of games from when I graduated to Unix and early Internet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      kirkman
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        @danielpunkass That's cool. I certainly loved the social aspects of BBSes as well. I've been trying to build a wiki about BBS door games, and I'm trying to find what games were popular pre-1990s. When I heard that was your BBSing era, I figured I'd ask. :)