Amazon's S&M workplace. [mobile.nytimes.com]
2015 smart person surplus. Similar 1980s surgical residencies.
@johngordon There were a couple years where I regularly got recruiting contacts from them. My favorite was the one where they were skipping all the usual BS because they actually needed to staff a project ASAP vs just because they can…
@johngordon … It makes clear that the other BS is probably just a decelerator on needless hiring. Places like that seem to keep hiring for the sake of hiring, not because they actually have a job that needs doing. Imagine much make-work.
@johngordon amazon sounds like a hellhole. eventually such companies end up reaping what they sow
@johngordon Huh. That also plays well with your “hiring to lock up potential competitive talent” theory.
@tomcat Check out our discussion about halo companies a while back. Lots of large tech companies are “pump and dump” operations targeting new grads as fresh meat. Hire them, work them, burn them out or alienate them, then fire for next crop. @johngordon
@jws I hear M$ and apple are exactly the same. maybe different in little details. but not really
// @johngordon
@jws for all that google is kinda evil, at least as far as I can tell they did a pretty awesome thing by starting a trend of treating their talent *well*. I mean it's sort of cult-like and creepy but… well… at least vaguely pleasant
// @johngordon
@tomcat Heh. Yesterday’s discussion was Apple. Also Facebook and similar large companies. If it’s in the Valley and over 100 EEs, watch out? @johngordon
@tomcat That got worse when competition upped. Many perqs ratcheted back. I’m not at laptop to dig up the article recounting this from the POV of a googler who left shortly thereafter, unfortunately. @johngordon
@tomcat The good treatment at a lot of companies seems very transparently aimed at making it so their 20-something bachelors need never leave work for anything domestic. Clothes washed, haircuts done, food prepared - you can just work 24/7. @johngordon
@jws oh yeah totally. NO NEED TO LEAVE THE MOTHERSHIP. reminds me of that episode where Homer works at that other nuclear power plant
// @johngordon
@tomcat That always working “passionate” culture does not play well with having a family. Read more: http://devblog.avdi.org/2014/02/10/the-passion-gospel/ @johngordon
@jws actually good point. I remember that Larry Page coming back was one of those triggers
// @johngordon
@jws it's incredibly, incredibly psychologically and physically unhealthy too. it disgusts me how some companies use their employees. and IT is very very bad.
// @johngordon
@jws And they are so proud of that in the interview process, it's the primary thing that scared me off. @tomcat @johngordon
@tomcat I wondered that. It is a selling point for them as well, a point of pride. Like special forces I suppose. There is an appeal to the simplicity, a purity of devotion, no mundane distractions. Time flies. I understand the appeal.
@johngordon an escape from reality, and an uber competitive environment in which narcissists excel. Very much like surgery. But I keep thinking so many of those amazonians must have signed up just wanting *a job*
@jws I think the pump-and-dump tech hiring explains Apple's crap apps of past 7-8 years. Non-prime products ideally staffed by skilled devs who want a life and choose to step back from prime. Instead staffed by novices and bitter soon-to-exit cinders.
@jws This pump-and-dump culture came from Jobs and Gates, but their heirs failed to fix. Didn't understand downside of amphetamines.
@tomcat the good thing is Amazon makes it clear that they want zealots. Nobody does surgery residency at Duke thinking they will have a life outside work. The honesty makes it less of an evil. Not everyone wants a life or finds complexity pleasant ...
@tomcat ... The bad thing is I think this "deal-with-the-devil" explains why Apple's non-OS products are crap.
@johngordon I don't think the work hours are nearly so bad as the backstabbing, grind others into the ground culture. At some point that kind of thing isn't just crappy for workers but surely also fucks up productivity and creativity
@johngordon just out of interest, do you mind explaining in further detail? I'm sure I agree with you but I am intrigued by how our lines of reasoning may intersect or diverge
@johngordon there were some amazing times I had in surgery despite working ridiculous hours... But they were only good due to camaraderie and support and good laughs that offset the grueling nature of the work. Same with military I think.
@johngordon what burnt me out was partially the cut throat, rat race nature of much of it. Hard to maintain enthusiasm when the camaraderie is replaced by villainy.
@johngordon @jws Omglol. Yes. Entirely true. Many careers are built and destroyed on amphetamines and cocaine....
@johngordon that said I do truly respect those who get through the training and thrive while keeping their humanity. At least in surgery things are bound to change. Not so sure about amazon
... Amazon S&M workplace is also similar to Wall Street finance and pre-partner years in consulting. Maybe also pre-tenure academia. Surgical residency as noted above. But in all those places it is transient and for ages 21-30...
... Software, to be healthy, needs non-transient long-term devs. It is not like the other examples.
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@johngordon @tomcat I’ll confess I’m a tad skeptical of this and would like to see more data. There are plenty of people who work long periods at Apple and even people who don’t do the insane daily hours. How common/uncommon? That’s the question.
@clarkgoble ... but, curiously, I think if Apple gets serious about diversity (I'm skeptical) I think they'll have to step back from Bezos-Hell.
@johngordon I’m just nervous speculating too much about a corporate culture I really have no experience with. I hear bad things but then I hear good things. I doubt I’d ever want to work at Apple but most people talking doubt it are only positive.
@clarkgoble I think what you’re hearing is that a sufficiently large organization with enough management control over their reports has room for a lot of variation in quality of life and quantity of death marches. @johngordon
@jws @johngordon That’s true but there there can also be corporate policies that incentivize bad experiences. I think one thing about both Amazon and Apple is that despite being huge they still act like startups with all the negatives that has.
@jws @johngordon But you’re also right that in a large company different departments may have very different cultures. Especially ones that are largely independent from others. (As say the Safari/WebKit team)