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dalton
    Nirvana's "Nevermind" was released 21 years ago: September 24, 1991. 21 years before 1991 was 1970. In that year, "Let it Be" and "Led Zeppelin III" was released. ie, the release of "Nevermind" marks the halfway point between present day and 1970. Weird.
    jsnell
      @dalton half my life, exactly. Bisected by Kurt Cobain.
      rand
        @dalton thanks for making many of us feel old. Or is that older? #nevermind
        dalton
          @rand I listened to that album today, and was trying to make sense of how old it actually is. Makes me feel old too :)
          dalton
            @jsnell is your perception the same as mine that a lot more cultural change happened between 1970 and 1991 vs 1991 and today?
            megavark
              @dalton I bought the cassette version of Nevermind if that helps you feel younger.
              jsnell
                @dalton I dunno. I was too little for most of the first part. ;-)
                rand
                  @dalton Take a look/listen of the Foo Fighters' catalog compared with Nirvana's to really feel age creeping in. But luckily, 21 and 21x2 years ago, all 4 bands will still be listened to. Hopefully iTunes has improved by then as well.
                  la
                    @dalton More cultural change from 1970-1991, certainly, but there's been much more technological change since 1991. This little thing called the Internet, for one. :-) // @jsnell
                    fields
                      @la @dalton @jsnell I posit that the internet has in fact been largely responsible for the lack of drive in cultural change.
                      dalton
                        @la oh I totally agree, but afaik academics had email addresses and usenet even then. Also, we had home computers and game boys. Perhaps my perception is skewed, though
                        alicia
                          @dalton ? Why is it weird? Sorry my knowledge of American pop culture is not too vast.
                          0xmf
                            @dalton: Now I see the baby swimming towards the money on a hook ... but what bill was it?
                            la
                              @dalton Let me rephrase that: we've seen more technologically-driven societal change since 1991. The Internet has fundamentally altered our patterns of social interaction. This conversation is an example of that.
                              dalton
                                @alicia i imagine to some people (including myself) that album still feels "modern" vs the 1970s is the far off past.
                                dalton
                                  @0xmf I remember reading an article talking about the college-aged kid that baby grew up to be
                                  dalton
                                    @la excellent point there.
                                    chrisobrien
                                      @jsnell @dalton so what is this year’s seminal, life changing album? … “Red Solo Cup”? *sigh*
                                      chrisash
                                        @dalton That must mean we’re due for some decent music again.
                                        natesm
                                          [Post deleted]
                                          jacarandachick
                                            @fields western culture perhaps but in developing countries social shifts are moving quickly, think of the newly independent countries over the last 30 years that are again transforming, the Internet seems to be speeding things up @la @dalton @jsnell
                                            la
                                              @jacarandachick No need to excuse yourself for that. :-)
                                              weskelley
                                                @dalton @la We began to link up with Compuserve, AOL and early BBSs in the late 80s and early 90s. The personal computer revolution was an early 80s phenomenon. Refinements like tech gadgets and ubiquitous communications happened in the last two decades.
                                                fields
                                                  @jacarandachick @la @dalton @jsnell Nobody's saying that societal shifts aren't happening. What we're mostly talking about is what's considered "popular culture", mostly US. It seems to be frozen like a deer in the internet's headlights.
                                                  jacarandachick
                                                    @la thanks I'm still not quite used to the open salon thing here, it sometimes feels as though I'm elbowing in ;)
                                                    la
                                                      @weskelley That's true, but it wasn't until the 1990s and the advent of the Web that it became truly mainstream, and arguably it took mobile devices to bring the revolution to the majority of people. Just my opinion. @dalton
                                                      la
                                                        @jacarandachick By all means, elbow in. That's what makes this place what it is. :-)
                                                        weskelley
                                                          @la Good point. Now the world is linked—not just the geeks. @dalton
                                                          d0gc0w
                                                            @jacarandachick I'll just follow you and drag you into some convos. That'll loosen you up. :) @la
                                                            annatarkov
                                                              @dalton @la I agree with @fields. I think technology in general and the Internet in particular have made us culturally lazy, for lack of a better term.
                                                              jacarandachick
                                                                @fields uh huh, as I'm not there I can't say I know what that means in practice? Is it about output/volume or is it about critical response? it feels as if US popular culture seems to be less the global front runner than it used to be. @la @dalton @jsnell
                                                                annatarkov
                                                                  @dalton ...on an unrelated note, I am now having flashbacks where I'm listening to Nevermind on repeat in my room in junior high. I started because a boy I liked liked Nirvana. But of course it soon became more than that.
                                                                  brentsimmons
                                                                    @dalton @jsnell I feel the opposite. (Born 1968.) The web is the biggest cultural change of my life so far.
                                                                    There are 12 new posts
                                                                    la
                                                                      @annatarkov I find it interesting that the generation that grew up with the Web is less chronologically restricted in their tastes. My nephews listen partly to the music I did; I sure as hell didn't listen to my parents' Nat King Cole. @dalton @fields
                                                                      la
                                                                        @d0gc0w Glen, that's an excellent idea. :-) // @jacarandachick
                                                                        scrooks
                                                                          @brentsimmons @dalton @jsnell Absolutely agree. The web, no doubt. I’m a 1966 baby.
                                                                          rand
                                                                            @la @annatarkov @dalton @fields I think it's more of how one grew up. I had 3 older bothers (8, 11, 14-year gap). I knew every Beatles album & Led Zep & Pink Floyd by the time I started first grade.
                                                                            annatarkov
                                                                              @la Is that really due to the web or just personal preference? Surely there must be kids now who only listen to modern music. @dalton @fields
                                                                              rand
                                                                                @la @annatarkov @dalton @fields I also don't think it's so much being technologically lazy as it is the short attention span era. Just like people often listen to streaming music or singles vs an entire album. Discovery isn't as big a deal these days.
                                                                                fields
                                                                                  @jacarandachick @la @dalton @jsnell read the vanity fair article a few posts back. It's mostly about being able to identify the period something comes from. Easy up until the 90's, impossible since then (so far).
                                                                                  la
                                                                                    @annatarkov It's characteristic of the kids I know, but they may not be a representative sample. Your mileage may vary.
                                                                                    jacarandachick
                                                                                      @fields thanks will go back and star that // @la @dalton @jsnell
                                                                                      glennf
                                                                                        @jsnell @dalton The older you get, the less you can perceive the degree of change because you’re too either inured, jaded, or embracing of it.
                                                                                        d0gc0w
                                                                                          @glennf You make it sound like we give up when we get older :) @jsnell @dalton
                                                                                          jsnell
                                                                                            @glennf @dalton Yeah, exactly. It’s way too easy to say “it wasn’t like that in my day.”
                                                                                            bcb
                                                                                              @la @dalton @jsnell I don't think that's really true, the change from 1970-1991 is a lot less than any 20 years in the 20th century. It's just the conceit of the baby-boom generation. From the long view, it's the century's most stable period.
                                                                                              bcb
                                                                                                @ghost_of_basho @la @dalton @jsnell Oddly enough, I've become a student of history through audiobooks on my commute. Stuff I would never make it through reading, I have a much easier time as audiobooks and I have a very long commute.
                                                                                                gerwitz
                                                                                                  @dalton not that you asked me, but absolutely in style and cultural fashion. Tech and media change accelerated. I have some immature theories about a relationship between these curves.
                                                                                                  glennf
                                                                                                    @jsnell @dalton Sometimes, I think I just accept so much more cultural change without question because of the previous pace when I was growing up.
                                                                                                    ravisorg
                                                                                                      @dalton @alicia that's the mark of a good album :)
                                                                                                      jsnell
                                                                                                        @chrisobrien @dalton you could make that joke about pop music in any year
                                                                                                        jsnell
                                                                                                          @glennf culture still changing rapidly. Good old days arguments are almost always fallacious. Nothing ever ends.
                                                                                                          macneil
                                                                                                            @dalton The ones that really make me feel old reach back to Elvis. I think that's where Michael Jackson is to today's kids, Elvis.
                                                                                                            gtc
                                                                                                              @dalton Nooo! The mind refuses to believe. That would mean I’m o…
                                                                                                              hz
                                                                                                                @ghost_of_basho where do you live/work? I have a 1.5 hr commute door-to-door if a use PT; about an hour if I drive.
                                                                                                                gtc
                                                                                                                  @jsnell Same here. Never thought of it that way. Interesting to consider Grohl playing at the apple event in that context. Epicycles.
                                                                                                                  glennf
                                                                                                                    @jsnell I keep trying. The first time, I returned the disc to the library without putting it in the DVD player. The 2nd time, i made it 20 minutes without retching.
                                                                                                                    jsnell
                                                                                                                      @glennf you could read the book. It’s in there too.
                                                                                                                      scottearle
                                                                                                                        @dalton @jsnell that’s a question you’d probably need to wait another 21 years before you could answer
                                                                                                                        grangarden
                                                                                                                          @dalton The inevitable xkcd reference comes here: http://xkcd.com/1093/
                                                                                                                          johnny
                                                                                                                            @dalton @swilliams As it happens, we’re listening to my mate’s original vinyl copy of Zep III. Moved in to a new place today, first thing set up in the yard was the turntable. Bliss.
                                                                                                                            chrisobrien
                                                                                                                              @jsnell @dalton very true. But when Nevermind and Let It Be came out, people knew they were special. 21 years later, I’m wondering if there is such a meaningful album (of any genre) coming out.
                                                                                                                              per
                                                                                                                                @dalton So what is being released today that will matter in 21 years?
                                                                                                                                ag
                                                                                                                                  @jsnell @dalton Also means we could extrapolate that some rock band’s release this year will once again define a generation.
                                                                                                                                  bcb
                                                                                                                                    @hz Berkeley to Stanford, these days it's at least 1.5 hrs each way, often getting to 2hrs depending on traffic. In theory I could do BART->Caltrain, but that would easily be 2+hrs
                                                                                                                                    dalton
                                                                                                                                      @jsnell @glennf that is a good point. It's hard to really know because "cultural change" seems like a subjective measure. I wonder what kind of objective measure a social scientist could cook up. Something akin to how inflation is measured over time
                                                                                                                                      dalton
                                                                                                                                        @chrisobrien I could suggest a few modern candidates, but it's too early to know if they will actually stand the test of time
                                                                                                                                        dalton
                                                                                                                                          @per this may start a flamewar, but I think the first Bon Iver record from 2007 makes it into the canon. Also that first big Gaga record will be listened to in 21 years. Kanye? Radiohead? I think more time needs to pass to really tell
                                                                                                                                          dalton
                                                                                                                                            @ag true, but it may not be rock, right? :)
                                                                                                                                            ag
                                                                                                                                              @dalton it may not be, but all of the previously cited examples qualified as rock bands (of one sort or another) at the time. There’s no pop artist in that list.
                                                                                                                                              dalton
                                                                                                                                                @birchtree I will wait until the hypem 2012 zeitgeist to answer that: http://hypem.com/zeitgeist/2011
                                                                                                                                                chrisobrien
                                                                                                                                                  @dalton I’m all ears! I’ve had thoughts of bands like Muse, Adele, Foo Fighters and even someone like Jay-Z… but they don’t seem to have the gravity
                                                                                                                                                  anth
                                                                                                                                                    @grangarden @dalton I always wonder whether the 2047 line makes more people go "oh, that's not so bad, then" or "god, that long?". me, i'm inclined to go do stupid things.
                                                                                                                                                    tofias
                                                                                                                                                      @dalton @jsnell have you read Tyler Cowen’s The Great Stagnation? Short and provocative.
                                                                                                                                                      tofias
                                                                                                                                                        @dalton @jsnell @glennf what aspects of culture would you measure? Inflation is the cost of a bundle of goods. So speed of information transfer (e.g., frame rate, modems, stock prices, news, etc)? Quality isn’t really measured by inflation bundle.
                                                                                                                                                        per
                                                                                                                                                          @dalton What matters tomorrow of the things we do today? It's an interesting question. I'm a huge Led fan but must attribute musical importance to Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here and Genesis' The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway.
                                                                                                                                                          dalton
                                                                                                                                                            @tofias I have no idea what you would measure honestly. Perhaps some clever social scientist could come up with something. Sampling slang/language usage?
                                                                                                                                                            tofias
                                                                                                                                                              @dalton that’s actually pretty clever. I still think you should read the Cowen book though.
                                                                                                                                                              guscost
                                                                                                                                                                @dalton Amount of time between the debut of Sugarhill Gang and the debut of Nas: 15 years. Amount of time since then: 18 years?!?